Wholetalers...what value are they really?

So I know this may be a little controversial, but I think it’s a question worth asking…

Of what actual value are “Wholetale” investors?

I’m talking about folks (like KISS Flippers, for example) who quick-flip houses in as-is or near as-is condition to retail buyers.  What value does this kind of investor really bring to the buyer?  Or even to the marketplace?

And come to think of it, you could really ask the very same question of most Wholesalers.  Why couldn’t the buyer just bypass the middle man and get the house at a better deal themselves?

To take it even further: What if your chief motivation for playing the house flipping game is simply to (gasp!) make quick, easy money? Stated simply…

Is there any moral dilemma with the act of getting paid exceptionally well for basically being a middle man who does little-to-no real “work” to earn it?

It’s actually a great question to tackle, and one that our KISS Flipping members bantered about recently within the inner sanctum of our members’ discussion forum.

What follows below is the full forum thread, as of the time I’m posting this.  And friend, there’s some good stuff down there.  I’m posting it for public benefit because I think it really hits home on some big “inner game” issues that hold more of us back than we even know.

If this issue resonates with you at all, then I challenge you to read this carefully…then please comment and share your own thoughts below.   I think you’ll find Bob’s ultimate responses toward the bottom especially enlightening.  Enjoy…

Mike C:

Recently, I have ask the question, “Why wholetailing?”

I am an avid reader and I have learned it is best to give.  So as a Wholetailer what am I giving?  A discounted property!?  A clean REO!?

Perhaps some of you share my line of thinking and would like to comment.

Thanx

Jerry:

Value.

People want real value.  Areas where people want to live, providing them a deal with turn key equity and a nice rehab sells all day long.  Listening to the market, and hearing what it wants, then going out and giving it to it.

Value investing applied to real estate.

Bob rocks.

JP Moses:

Expanding on what Jerry said, the “wholetale” market is hungry right now, and underserved.  They’re looking for the kinds of deals we can create for them — that wouldn’t have fit their needs/criteria otherwise.

That’s genuine value to the marketplace.

…jp

Mike C:

Though I believe my question may not be specific or clear enough, I do appreciate your responses.

For several weeks, I have been asking myself, “As the whotailer what am I giving the home buyer?” In other words, why couldn’t they eliminate the middle man and just go for it.

I ask this because my Chief Definite Aim requires me to give someting.  And if I just purchase a property, mark up the price, and sell it; then what am I giving.  Doesn’t seem like I am taking?

Having put some thought into my own question,  I thought some advantages. Like, “I reviewed the major systems for the new buyer. Or “I purchase price is so good that I am able to pass along a further dicount to the home buyer.”

So, having said that, can you suggest your resason – to help me for my chief Definite Aim.

Thank you in advance

Jason H:

Mike,

I understand your concerns…. But after reading your post. I believe you are the only one that can truly answer that question. I believe that both Jerry and JP both gave you solid reasons to your questions but its my opinion your looking for more than can be answered by anyone but yourself. It just like everyone says… Success mean different to different people so I also believe that giving and receiving is also different to different people… Hope that does make sense.

Chad S:

Mike,

It is your expertise that allows you to get deals that others cannot.  It is buying these deals that allows you to make a profit.  You don’t have to feel bad about that.  The reality is, if you don’t, someone else will.  Ultimately, flipping is a business.  I believe its easier to be charitable with your profits than charitable with your business.

Seems you could take your concern to any level of flipping.  Even if you are extensively rehabbing the property, why is it fair to make a profit?  In my opinion, its because you found a good deal and are providing value (like Jerry mentioned).  Whether you gut the place or do nothing, you are providing this value based on your expertise.

Only you can decide if that meets your inner needs.

Good luck,

-Chad

Mike C:

Who am I (we) helping? Myself (Ourselves)?

I’m pretty back and white about this so I do not intend to offend anyone, but if I do, then I apologize in advance.

Ex.  No one is selling pot in my town, so if I sell pot before some one else does, then I have the edge, corner the market and I am making money.

I know my example is extreme, but please bear with me. I pick up a house, resell the house then I make money.  How do I help my neighbor in, during or after the buy-sell process?

I don’t know.

When I rehab a house I add value to the property and sell the property at or below market value.  I have improved a house and a neighborhood, also updated a property and provided equity to the new property owner.

Perhaps I am missing the point.  If anyone can clarify for me, then I would be most grateful.

Mike H:

Are you asking how KISS Flipping helps others? My view is we’re buying a property which is a piece of crap and would not qualify for conventional financing….rehab it enough to where it will, we then sell it to someone who now can buy a property which needs minimal work AND they buy it with equity….equity is huge with homeowners, especially homeowners who may not be able to afford a total-Rehab style property….so it’s win/win for all…

Jerry:

Mike, I guess when you phrase it like that I can see your problem.

Homeowners do not buy houses regularly.  They are looking for a good deal.  They are looking for a simple deal.

Ultimately I guess what you are giving them is confidence.  Confidence that this is the best deal they will get, which it probably is.  Lots of people need to be led.

A homeowner goes out and gets a Realtor to show them 35 houses and gets tired of looking at stuff.  You had the confidence to buy it, rehab it and are selling it to them at a discount.  If you had the confidence to by it, and they like it and can buy it from you they will buy it.

I don’t think your pot example is very analogous, as here there are plenty of houses to buy but only one great deal.  Like Bob said in the very beginning…the magic pill is controlling a great deal for your markets ACTIVE buyers.

Mike C:

Thanks, I very much like your response.  This is what I am looking for me and my fellow investor – what’s in it for us (buyer and wholetaler).

-Mike

Bob Norton:

Mike – you are asking a great question but you are probably going a little extreme.

First of all, congrats on reading think and grow rich. Some may not have picked up on what you were talking about with your chief definite aim.

Second, a lot of us “FEEL” something warm and fuzzy about making a house all gorgeous and all, even if it takes 400 hours of our life.

I’m gonna give an example:

I have a coaching student right now. The $500 a month kind. AND she got a deal and is brand new to this game. We bought it for $105k, its worth $250-$275k. It needed $60k in work.

I proposed that at this point in her investing career that she take a $10k wholesale from me and go find more deals. She turned me down, wanting to prove to me she can manage a big rehab, prove this to herself and go for bigger bucks. MOST OF ALL, she was in love with the concept of providing high quality beautiful real estate to the end buyers. She was living the “flip this house” dream.

Well, we are putting it on the market on Monday (0ct 12th) and let me tell you, she is really regretting making the decision she did. Biggest reason for this is because its not “like TV” and after fighting and screaming with contractors for 3 months, 300-400 hours later, partnering with another guy to help her and going way over budget, she isn’t going to make much more than the $10k.

The point of this story is that getting emotional and providing the marketplace with beautiful houses is a feeling we all have and want. We deep down don’t want to sell crap. BUT what’s the reason for all this work?

That’s what you have to ask yourself. You already got your answer but its not the fluffed up make you feel good kind of answer you want. Your cheif aim is to flip houses at the highest profit margin possible with the least amount of effort/risk possible. You are in it for the money! Don’t ever be embarrassed about the fact that you are in the marketplace to make quick easy money!!

Your question seems to be more internal. You don’t feel all warm and fuzzy by buying something, doing nothing and making $20k. YOUR RULES tell you that you aren’t adding value. YOU HAVE TO RE-WRITE YOUR RULES!!

Go read my blog. You will see in many places like my 101 page and my about bob page that I say, flipping is a means to an end. I’m a dealmaker. And a dealmaker goes bananas to make $20k by not doing anything.

He adds value because he is providing the buyer a product that they cannot find at that price anywhere else. He is allowing the buyer to avoid the headaches of trying to buy a REO (go see my latest blog).

BUT even if you didn’t have those reasons, you need to get more personal here.

What kind of father, husband or family member could you be if you made $40-60k a month doing nothing? Would you spend that free time sharing, caring and making a difference. What would you do if I could get you 3 wholetales a month by working 3-4 hours a week? How many lives could you impact?

Hopefully you can see that you chief purpose may not have anything to do with selling well priced homes at a discount. Your main purpose may be to finance the life you have always dreamed of.

This flipping homes business is nothing more than a means to an end to finance and free up time to allow you to really be the kind of man you want to be.

Hope this helps bro. Great great question. Go work on your rules. I have a feeling that you are probably repelling some great opps because of your inner turmoil. I can’t thank you enough for being brave enough to ask this question as this kind of stuff goes through the minds of most people who are in kiss flipping. They sabotage their own potential because its too dang easy.

Bob

Brad G:

WELL SAID BOB!

I kind if feel the same way Mike does.  Then I have to engage my brain. I am primarily “emotional” about my decisions and that gets in my way some times. I have to purposefully THINK about my decisions to make them less emotional.

I have no guilt about any kind of money I make.  My goal is to make as much money as possible.  Be filthy stinking money rich! At whatever cost short of stealing and fraud. (Well maybe some others too but can’t think of them right now and definitely want to treat others right and NOT take advantage of anyone. Get the real idea?)

What am I going to do with the money? After a minimum of 10% to the church, and a decent level of living, it’s going to be charitable giving and setting up foundations for the less fortunate.  That is how I will get my warm and fuzzies!

Brad

Bob Norton:

Thanks for posting. What is really interesting and we all have to check ourselves on “the little things” is how you said, “Filthy, Stinking Rich”.

Filthy…..Stinking…..then followed by Rich.  I never use the word in this way and I know by no means did you consciously do it. I use “enrich” and “passion” and “abundant” and “easy” to describe being rich.

By changing a few little things, even those few little words, will start to make a difference.

Please don’t think I’m knocking you. I got the point of your post. Just try to observe your thoughts and words. AND go buy the millionaire mind by T. Harv Eker right now on Amazon. RIGHT NOW!

Thanks,

Bob

Mike C:

Thanks Bob.  Your words are kind and well received.  A Chief Definite Aim includes being like you, Bob Norton, and a little JP too.   I must remember to keep you guys in my prayers.

So…what do you think?  Agree?  Disagree?  Please post your own thoughts on this below…

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